Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Thu, 4 Jul 91 03:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Thu, 4 Jul 91 03:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #776 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 776 Today's Topics: Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA. Re: Access to Space Re: Hermes (was Re: (none)) Re: Amputation Re: United Space Federation IEC/BOD/Members & Supporters E-Mail List Soviet Space trip Re: Launch failure today Re: Access to Space SPACE Digest V13 #644 Re: Mining El Dorado Re: Mining El Dorado Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jun 91 21:54:50 GMT From: tristan!loren@lll-winken.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich) Subject: Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA. In article <15390@hydra.Helsinki.FI> wikla@cs.Helsinki.FI (Arto Wikla) writes: >Remember what happened to the economy of Spain after >they had found the gold of America! >(There was a gold-inflation, which ruined the economy and finally >was the end of super-power Spain.) I don't think that a superabundance of cheap gold would be an economic disaster in today's world, however, though it would certainly affect all those who have invested in gold. Has anyone estimated the total value of all the gold that is in various people's hands, using current gold prices? And I'm sure most governments by now have printed much more money than they have by way of gold or other such reserves (any estimates here also?). This hope of great wealth was what had motivated the alchemists for centuries, despite failure after failure. About the 1600's (if I remember correctly), the early scientist Robert Boyle petitioned the British Government to repeal a law against the alchemical manufacture of gold, because it would cause needless suspicion to be cast on research into new chemical processes. I think that he had come to suspect that the alchemists' great goal was impossible. The reason for this law was presumably that a superabundance of cheap gold would destroy the value of Britain's gold reserves (I'm not sure how far paper money had come along by then). I recall that there was an expedition by some German chemists in the 1910's(?) to attempt to extract gold from seawater; though they succeeded, they discovered that the process would cost more than the gold they recovered. I have also tried to make estimates of the cost of making gold by using nuclear reactions (one needs a certain input of energy), and I come to the same conclusion. Though producing lots of cheap gold would not be an economic disaster, those who have lots of investments in the form of gold might get together and form a "gold lobby" and try to slow down the distribution of such gold. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster: loren@sunlight.llnl.gov Since this nodename is not widely known, you may have to try: loren%sunlight.llnl.gov@star.stanford.edu ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 17:03:02 GMT From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!ox.com!fmsrl7!wreck@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Ron Carter) Subject: Re: Access to Space In article <31559@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: >If you couldn't talk to Europe instantaneously, would the demand for >computers in Europe be less? No, there would just be two companies >instead of one, or several companies. All advanced communications allows >Sequent to do is expand the scope of its operations. It does not actually >create wealth. Considering that those several companies, separately, would probably not have the capability of developing, manufacturing and delivering the same quality of goods as a single large company, it is evident that wealth is created (actually, the creation of wealth is enabled, though the distinction is minor) by communications. >Manufacturing indeed creates wealth, as it adds value to something. What >does a comsat add value to? The comsat adds value to goods and services. Services, by making their creation and delivery cheaper, and goods, by making them more effective. A CNC lathe is a good, but without services such as programming, it is useless and therefore worthless. Would your computer be worth anything without the services which went into programming it? Would it be of any informative value to you without the communications services it uses? ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 22:00:14 GMT From: prism!ccoprmd@gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) Subject: Re: Hermes (was Re: (none)) In article <1991Jun19.212029.16199@sequent.com> szabo@sequent.com writes: >In article la_carle@sol.brispoly.ac.uk (Les Carleton) writes: >>...manned (is there a non-sexist version of this?) >Yes, "astronaut" or "cosmonaut". Unfortuneately, the pro-astronaut >crowd has decided that the language should be "manned" vs. "unmanned", >turning an economic and technical issue into a Luddite debate of human vs. >machine. When I point out that "manned" is not only sexist but innaccurate, >since there are many fine men and women building and using automated >spacecraft, I am accused of "perverting the English language". In the context of the article by the initial poster, 'crewed' is the non-sexist (if you insist on calling 'manned' sexist) term of choice. How does calling the shuttle a 'manned spacecraft' become inaccurate as a result of people building and using unmanned spacecraft? I have this funny feeling there's going to be some more abuse of the English language... Nick, your abuse of the language for your personal ends is well known. 'Manned sample-return mission' for rockhunting in Antarctica, 'teleoperated robot' for Voyager, and probably now something involving people on the ground being part of manned spacecraft. You are fairly accused. -- Matthew DeLuca Georgia Institute of Technology "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their Office of Information Technology P.O. box." - Zebadiah Carter, Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu _The Number of the Beast_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 91 07:43:18 PDT From: jim@pnet01.cts.com (Jim Bowery) To: crash!space+@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Amputation Allen Sherzer writes: >In article jim@pnet01.cts.com (Jim Bowery) writes: >>Having heard Rep. Green speak on this issue, he will fight like hell >>to protect space science. > >A Congresscritter will always say what you want to hear. He said this on a NPR call-in show where he was the only member of a panel that was packed with JSC supporters. He was the only person actively defending space science. People who were calling in were astro-groupies. Sorry, Mr. Congresscritter Green was a little like Brady getting up to speak at the national convention of the NRA -- he definitely was NOT "playing to the crowd." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Bowery 619/295-3164 The Coalition for PO Box 1981 Science and La Jolla, CA 92038 Commerce ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 91 13:54:43 GMT From: ssc-vax!bcsaic!hsvaic!eder@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: United Space Federation IEC/BOD/Members & Supporters E-Mail List [edited from a long posting:] In article <5C7A1A8C9A9F80429A@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> USF@VAX5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU writes: >_____________________________________________________________________________ > United Space Federation,Inc. IEC/BOD/Members E-Mail Addresses > >From: Rick R. Dobson > Executive Director > > >__________________________________________________________________________ >******* United States of America United Space Federation Group ********** >__________________________________________________________________________ > > >Dani Eder Member USF USA Group > Internet: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com > > To Mr. Dobson: As they say here in the South: "Yoah in a big heap o' trouble boa" I wrote you asking to be placed on your mailing list if it was to be a 'discussion' type list. I said if it was only to be used for broadcast type messages, then not to bother. I received several back issues of information about what the USF was for. I wrote you a detailed message on why I thought the USF was a bad idea, but as of today I have not received any response to my comments nor any indication that my response was redistributed to anyone else (can anyone else verify this?). Now I find my name listed as a member of your group, something which I do not want. If it hasn't occurred to you, I may want to correspond with you in order to try to change your mind, or merely to keep an eye on you. To the rest of the NET: I oppose the formation of a USF of the type presentented by Mr. Dobson, for reasons which I will be happy to discuss further with anyone who wants to. To list me as a 'member' is a misrepresentation of my position on this subject since it implies support. Dani Eder ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 11:51:48 GMT From: njin!spcvxb.spc.edu!ogrady_e@rutgers.edu Subject: Soviet Space trip I have just received special authority from senior Soviet space officials to visit and tour certain space facilities in Moscow and Baikonur during the last 10 days in July. Additionally, I am authorized to bring a limited number of guests as part of an American delegation. The trip will include Leningrad, Moscow, Star City, NPO Energia facilities, the Baikonur cosmodrome, Flight Control Center in Kaliningrad, etc. Additionally, the trip will include discussions with Soviet officials regarding the business of placing experiments aboard MIR. This trip ain't cheap but I have been over before and it's the trip of a lifetime for Soviet Space junkies. If anyone is SERIOUSLY interested in coming along, please call me immediately and I will discuss it further with you. I may be reached 24 hours a day (it will not disturb anyone if you call in the middle of the night) at 718-979-5797. However, I must emphasize again that time is critical. Best regards, Ed O'Grady ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 21:37:48 GMT From: agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!freedom!xanth!sulkanen@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Martin Sulkanen - NRC/ES65) Subject: Re: Launch failure today szabo@sequent.com writes: >In article <1991Jun19.024459.15721@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@aurora.physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: >> Well, I just saw a throwaway bite on the evening news relating to the >>destruction by range safety of an unmanned rocket. The footage had a >>round decal with Orbital Sciences Corporation on it... "prospector". >The Joust suborbital vehicle for microgravity experiments. I believe >NASA calls the series "Prospector" (I might easily have the names >backwards). OSC has had tons of problems with it. Not good news. does anybody know of these problems and why? the rocket is a modified booster for delta launches...what mods were made? on a related issue, what is the status of amroc and space services projects these days? thanks, |_________________________________________________________________| | martin sulkanen ][ internet: sulkanen@xanth.msfc.nasa.gov | | es 65 ][ span: ssl::sulkanen | | nasa/msfc ][ voice: 205/544-5823 | | huntsville, al 35812 ][ institute for troutphysics | |_________________________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 15:25:14 GMT From: swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!emory!Dixie.Com!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary@ucsd.edu (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Access to Space In article <31559@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes: > >Manufacturing indeed creates wealth, as it adds value to something. What >does a comsat add value to? Airplanes don't create wealth, either, they >just provide a service. I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. Comsats add value to the RF spectrum by acting as range extenders. They are as legitimate a wealth creating industry as steel makers who take a raw resource and add value to it. [Scazbo] >>I find your arguments quite astounding. Perhaps what you are really >>trying to say is that, because the industry does not employ astronauts, >>you don't care about it? > >Perhaps you have a hole in your head, too. > >Where did I say I do not care about the communications satellites? I think >they're a great idea. I am taking issue with your statement that comsats >are a self-sustaining industry, because they're only industry in the loosest >sense of the word. Asteroid mining (manned or unmanned) would create wealth. >Space-based materials processing would create wealth. Solar power satellites >would create wealth. Communications satellites don't create wealth. Do you >see what I am getting at? I see what you are getting at, and your perception of wealth creation is improperly limited to the procurement and manufacture of tangible objects. In your view, software has no value, books have no value other than the paper content, anything you can't touch or weigh isn't of value, this is wrong. Wealth creation is the act of increasing the usable value of some resource. That resource can be a new idea, something in very short supply, or the electromagnetic spectrum, or metallic ore. >You've gotten into a rut on your anti-astronaut crusade...it's starting to >color your perceptions of other people's articles. I do agree with this sentiment. Gary ------------------------------ ReSent-Message-ID: Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 17:29:03 EDT Resent-From: Tom McWilliams <18084TM@msu.edu> Resent-To: space+@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1991 05:43:26 TZONE Reply-To: space+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@msu.edu From: space-request+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU%CARNEGIE.BITNET@msu.edu Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #644 Comments: To: space+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU To: david polito <15432DJP@MSU.BITNET>, Tom McWilliams <18084TM@MSU.BITNET> Re "Space Pollution" >One messed-up spaceball (Earth) is enough. One cannot be sure there >isn't life on that planet (in whatever form, with whatever inteligence), >and I don't think we humans should start out interstellar life as >"planet-strippers". >I am not looking forward to a flame-war about the existence of life on >other planets. I want to bring home that unthoughtful exploration of >natural resources is what brought us the current environmental crisis. I'm not trying to start a flame war either, but the current environmental crisis can only be traced to exploration in a dim sense. The real dangers are pollution, garbage, gaseous emmissions, and non-degradable things. All are possible through the power of oil, all are stuck here because of the gravity of the planet, and all are dangerous because of the number of people contributing. Exploration is usually hard on the environment only because the explorer has to fight the environment to avoid becoming part of it (i.e getting eaten). IF there is life on other plaents, this will undoubtably still hold. But with space travel, we can put polluting industrial processes off-planet, and dump garbage and non-degradable things (like plutonium) on the resident star, where the primary fusion pile will dwarf any danger. It might be illustrative, as a perspective-making idea to remember that plants create oxygen (a poison to many life-forms), a gaseous emmission that many of our distant ancestors used to make our way of life possible. So, perhaps not all pollution is bad. Tom Acknowledge-To: <18084TM@MSU> ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 91 00:39:27 GMT From: hub.ucsb.edu!ucsbuxa!3001crad@ucsd.edu (Charles Frank Radley) Subject: Re: Mining El Dorado While the ancient El Dorado never existed, we now have a confirmed sighting ( by NASA 0 as of a couple of weeks ago, of a large near-Earth asteroid composed of metal. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 91 20:02:54 GMT From: eagle!data.nas.nasa.gov!mustang!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Steinn Sigurdsson) Subject: Re: Mining El Dorado In article , shafer@skipper (Mary Shafer) writes: > >Is your subject line prophetic? The Spanish never found El Dorado. >They looked and they died looking, but they never found it because >it didn't exist. > yah, but look at what they created in the process, why there are huge air bases there now doing vital aerospace research! ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #776 *******************